....in fact, he wasn't even talking about contraception. He was talking about a different aspect of sexual morality, relating to male prostitution and therefore to homosexual activity.
You will find this link helpful.
Today, the Jeremy Vine show, a discussion in which Auntie took part. You can listen if you like - and perhaps you will share the views of people who have already written in to this Blog to say how much they hate and despise me.
Essentially, it's like this: it's like this: the issue about which the H. Father was speaking was about homosexual activity - which is itself sinful (and of course is absolutely not open to life So we are not discussing contraception here). A parallel might be made with another sinful situation: a chap plans an armed robbery, but something makes him feel that even though he has every intention of stealing, he doesn't really want to murder anyone. So instead of a gun, he takes a replica. Now - this doesn't mean that the Church will start to distribute replica guns to criminals. It doesn't mean that the Church says that robbing a bank is OK so long as you only use a replica gun. It doesn't even mean that the intention of using a replica gun is in any way acceptable. But the decision to abandon the real gun is, in however remote a way, a faint beginning on the road towards the beginnings of moral thinking.
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21 comments:
My grandfather was a defense attorney without equal. He signed his name; his word was his bond; he stuck to the facts. Your bloggers, Joanna, could learn a thing or two from him. Anyone can throw anonymous stones at your character, appearance, etc. PLEASE let us all endeavor to offer constructive criticism sticking to the facts and not getting personal. Additionally, the Holy Father has to cease his musings with journalists and come out CLEARLY when he has something to say. Everyone proceeds to interpret the Pope according to one's own agenda. The Pope must speak clearly even when he is not speaking ex cathedra. He should be enlightening the world, not confusing the issue. Soundbytes result...and the media runs with it. Nancy C. Waters Bronxville NY
You were brilliant on Jeremy Vine.
For most of the media (especially the BBC), they report what they want to report and truth has all but disappeared.
Viva Il Papa Benedetto!
Dear Joanna
I thought you were brilliant. I actually thought Jememy grasped the issues rather well too. Lavinia---well what can say---how absurd, to suggest not once but twice, that the Catholic Church is responsible for the spread of AIDS. It was one of the more intelligent discussions (apart from Lavinia's comments) I've heard on this subject, since news of the interview-book broke. Keep up the good work! It gives me hope for my children, and confidence to keep going.
The Pope's statement was from his new book and it was pretty clear. It was the media that made a sound bite of it.
Congratulations - you explained the position very clearly and courageously on Jeremy Vine.
I presumed media distortion when I first read about this, but I think Fr Finigan and Fr Boyle are right: the pope has opened a can of worms, and I'm not sure for what end. Again his academics tendency for nuance has spread anguish and confusion.
By using the extreme and unrealistic example of a homosexual prostitute who, by wearing a condom to protect his 'client' from HIV, is accepting that not 'everything is allowed', the Holy Father has, whilst not explicitly stating it, admitted of the possibility of the same principle being applied to less extreme but nonetheless 'survival' situations. By extension, any use of the condom in almost any situation can be understood as 'a first step in the direction of a moralization', even those in which the condom is used as a contraceptive; a promiscuous man is admitting that using a condom protects the woman from pregnancy and single-motherhood, or the real possibility that the possibly conceived baby is aborted; the young married couple engage in sex using barrier contraceptives because they are too poor to have a child, thereby minimising the greater evil of (to the modern mind) a child being raised in relative poverty. In all, by arguing that in individual cases a condom my be a positive development, he has introduced the idea that the use of the condom is down to the individual(s) conscience. This is almost ludicrous and disestablishes previous declarations of the Magesterium, not least Humanae Vitae. It may not be very palatable, but these are the implications of what he said. And it should in no way suprise us; everything else he's said and done since ascending to the papacy has been equally radical
After hearing your comments on Jeremy Vine, as a gay man myself I was initially horrified and angry at your views - comparing homosexuality to armed robbery or murder in part.
After thinking about it later, I have come to the conclusion that we live in a free democracy, and you are entitled to your beliefs and opinions the same as everyone else - which in my case is the polar opposite.
Having been born gay, with early memories of fascination with the male form that I could not explain at the time - before any sexual feelings - being born to hetrosexual and loving parents, having no sexual or other abuse, having a hetrosexual sister, not mixing or knowing of any other gay men or women until my early 20's - I would ask you, as a believer in God, do you think that he made me and millions like me around the world (over the centuries) gay - or do you believe that we are all making some lifestyle choice (as in becoming a punk or deciding to have piercings or tattoos) - and I would ask ..do you really believe that being gay is a matter of choice for every gay person, and second, is it really such a sin - does God not love all of his children, and would he not be happy to see them in loving and caring relationships - no matter who it may be with - male or female.
Not all gay people are prostitutes, promiscuous,or riddled with HIV/AIDS.
I know lots of male and female gay couples who live, love and care just like any other hetrosexual couple - and in some cases are much more faithful.
I ask you to think carefully that in future your public comments potentially make it that bit harder for me, and others like me, including children growing up - terrified to face up to who and what they are at school, home and in the big wide world - and ask you to have some compassion and understanding - after all, we are all Gods children and with all of the problems in the world, your influence and faith could be put to much better use.
Well the pope has now clarified matters and, lo and behold, he was talking about men AND women - not just homosexual men (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11821422).
Your homophobic rant yesterday on the Jeremy Vine show was beyond parody and has now been revealed as based on nothing but your own prejudices. The pope at least is finally starting to see sense...
Well, I must say I was amazed while listening to the Jeremy Vine show. Amazed because Joanna made such a fool of herself. Today's clarification from the Vatican that the Pope was NOT talking only about sexual activity between two men but rather sexual activity where the wearing of a condom was done specifically to stop transmission of HIV.
I must say that this is exactly the danger one runs when asking unqualified people to speak on complex moral issues. Joanna spouted forth for most of the interview saying that it was perfectly clear that the Pope meant homosexuality. He didn't, as today's clarification show. It's a good job Joanna wasn't a minister in the government - show would be writting her letter of resignation. And I notice that there has bo no post from Joanna to date. Come on Joanna, we're waiting! An apology for yesterday's rant would be a start...!
Joanna, would you please take a vow of silence....for ever.
Joanna,
You were indeed brilliant, clear, correct, and courageous. Many thanks for all you do to spread Faith AND Reason. Always looking forward to your blog, books, and programs.
Just one of many articles which make a mockery of your argument:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/the-pope/8154992/Women-and-men-can-use-condoms-to-protect-themselves-from-Aids-Vatican-says.html
Your opinions and attitude on Jeremy Vine's show disgusted me. Outrageous.
Count me with those that think the Pope unnecessarily opened a can of worms. To say that homosexuality is wrong but use a condom if you do is inherently contradictory. Does that now mean I can masterbate as long as I wear a condom? The Church's position on sexuality (sex for procreation only) while a tough position was philosophically coherent. The Pope just intorduced incoherence.
Gillineau's comment above was spot on.
Thank you John & anon for your comments. I, for one, made a formal complaint to the BBC about Joanna Bogle's homophobic outburst on the radio on Monday.
I am gay. It is not a choice. I am not immoral. I am in a loving, exclusive relationship with my boyfriend.
I have been oppressed for decades by the likes of Joanna, making her views heard above my own. I have been depressed and suicidal until I stopped fighting what is a completely natural instinct in me to love another man.
How can it be so wrong to love another man? Who would deny that love? My love for my boyfriend does not harm anyone. Let me love him in peace.
Ben from Cheshire
Joanna, why are you always so hysterical in your talks?
What's wrong in your life? you are a catholic representative, not a street speaker.
Are you sure everything is alright with either your family or your health, maybe you are not happy.
Will pray to get you in peace.
Take care - Bless you.
Whenever you open your mouth you not only talk nonsence but harm the Church. The fact that you make a fool of yourself is neither here or there, it is an accepted fact. Harming the Church is a serious sin. Retire.
The Vatican's clarification reduces your argument to nonsence. Are you suggesting that the 5000+ daily deaths in Africs of AIDS are confined to homosexuals? Homosexuality is rare in Africa and the penalties are severe. Why not go and live there? Yet you seem to believe that it is teeming with homosexuals. To call this clutching at straws in your obsession with homosexuality is, perhaps, too polite.
The reality is that wives are infected by their husbands after they have caught AIDS from female prostitutes when away from home. These, rather then homosexuals, are the present victims of AIDS and, as the clarifications prove, this is recognized by the Holy Father.
As for male prostitutes, while many are homosexual and serve homosexual clients, there are also heterosexual male prostitutes who serve women. Look them up on the net and see for yourself. Your lack of knowledge of the world is astounding but it is simply part of your general ignorance. Let's hope that your crummy degree from Maryvale might get a little education into your head, assuming, of course, that your lectureres get a word in edgeways.
After this announcement was made somebody raised your name in association with it at a meeting of priests on Monday and the result was loud laughter. That's what most people really think of you.
Joanna, I am a practising Catholic and I have to say that, having listened to you on the Jeremy Vine show, I found your tone and manner of speaking very aggressive and unchristian. I am sure that Jesus would never have spoken in such way - He is gentleness and meekness itself and as St Francis De Sales said: "there is nothing as strong as gentleness and nothing as gentle as real strength." The way you came across was like bull in a china shop, battering and bludgeoning your points down the airwaves. I believe speaking what we understand to be the truth should always be done with love and compassion. On this occasion I think you sadly lacked the latter. Chosen, as you were by this radio programme, to represent the Catholic Church, I think you did more damage than good and were actually a bad advert for the Faith.
Bernadette, go and look at a packet of condoms. It'll say somewhere that it is not a foolproof way of preventing conception. As you probably know, we can't get pregnant more than a few days each month. But we can get venereal diseases any time of the month. So if the old latex has a (what is it? 5% 10%? more?) failure rate in preventing conception even without user error, how much higher is it when it comes to preventing infection?
If it were a custom to play russian roulette with one's wife, pointing a gun at her head with five of six chambers loaded and one blank, would you be campaigning to introduce a custom where only one or two chambers are loaded?
As an 'active homosexual', I totally disagree with the person who filed a complaint with the BBC about you.
Personally, I would love to hear you on the radio/see you on the television every single day. I doubt you have ever managed to persuade to agree with you who didn't do so already, but your rants and general bossiness are absolutely hilarious!
One day you should give one of your talks at a gay cabaret bar - 'Feats and Seasons' would go down a storm at the Vauxhall Tavern!
Joanna
Having read the comments which you have generously allowed to stand on your blog (most bloggers would not), it's clear that people who hide behind 'anonymous' are the worst. Perhaps you should insist that everyone who wants to post should put their name to their opinions.
Asked what he thought of spiteful media comment about himself, Cardinal Ratzinger, as he then was, said that if he didn't see it, then he wasn't defending the truth strongly enough.
It would be so easy for the Church to adjust its teachings so that people would always feel comfortable, but of course it cannot do that.
I didn't hear the Jeremy Vine show but if Joanna was defending Catholic teaching, she needs as much support and encouragement as possible.
I hope you are ignoring the harsh comments, Joanna. Keep speaking out and doing your bit. The Holy Spirit is cheering you on.
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