THIS IS CRUCIAL
Worrying - very worrying - telephone conversation concerning the Govt's loathesome Sexual Orientation Regulations. Check the facts and find out what is actually at stake. Look, this isn't just a matter of homosexual couples adopting children - though that is bad enough. It's a matter of what things schools will be obliged to teach - yes, including Catholic schools - and the forcing of individuals, including you and me, into doing things that offend our consciences (for example, you could find you were breaking the law if, as a caterer or photographer, you declined to cater for a "gay wedding").
OH, and PLEASE don't immediately say smugly "Oh, but lots of Catholic schools already teach all sorts of wrong things...." So that makes it all right for the Government to force them to do so? Is that what you are saying? Read me again. The new law could force Catholic schools to teach that homosexual activity is not sinful. They may be able to get round the law by not teaching anything on the subject at all.
I can certainly think of a Catholic school which teaches that homosexual activities are sinful. It is quite controversial teaching these days, and it has to be said that some of the parents and families of the pupils probably don't agree with the Church on this - and probably some of the pupils don't either. So they could certainly cause trouble for the school if they were stirred up to do so....and stirring them up is exactly what "gay rights" lobbyists exist to do.
I am certain that our Bishops, who are currently adopting a "let's-chat-to-the -Government-very-privately-and-on-a-friendly-basis" approach on this are failing to tackle this with the urgency that they should. I am quietly confident that they won't do anything at all vigorous unless they are jolted into some sort of action. Have you written to your Bishop about it? No, I'm NOT interested in your comment that he-probably-won't-do-anything-anyway. If you wrote - or got various other people to write - raising some of the specific issues in the useful link I have given you above, it would mean that you at least knew he had been given some relevant information.
I've noticed that people are very happy to write to Bishops about anything connected with the liturgy - and love blogging about it too, and getting all excited. The idea of some one else's little boy or girl being adopted by a homosexual pair who will teach the child that this sinful lifestyle is just fine.....well, that's not nearly so important is it?
Is it?
38 comments:
Thanks for raising this. It is very worrying indeed, & yes you are right we should write to our Bishops.It's sheer laziness on my part..
Can you possibly see that your being "offended" about infringing the beliefs that you have chosen through your own volition is not, in the balance of things, as important as the provision of equal rights to various groups of people, including gay people?
Your self-interest appears to be clouding your judgment to the point where you can't imagine that giving the equality of rights to all individuals is a decent thing. Aside from homosexuals, can you give other examples of groups of people, feel free to group them however you like, who don't deserve equal rights? I'd be curious exactly where you place homosexual people in your hierarchy of those who are allowed to be freely discriminated against. It's a curious stance to take.
Well here in the states there has been much blogging in St. Blogs about this issue. First with Catholic Charities in Boston and later Catholic Charities in San Francisco both involved in the past with adoptions to same-sex parents. Boston is now out of the adoption business because of a state law similar to the one in Britain forcing agencies to adopt to same-sex couples. In San Francisco they have also got out of adoptions because of state laws.
Your right though this is an extremely important issue.
I don't think Dermot is being quite fair to Joanna. It is not really an issue of discrimination - there is no question of homosexuals in Britain not being allowed to adopt through other agencies, or secular schools teaching what they want, just that Catholics, for whom, after all, the most crucial issue of their immortal soul is at stake, should not be forced to collude in something they regard as sinful, or indeed to teach that it is right. It is a vital question of freedom of conscience which anyone, whatever their beliefs, should be able to recognise. A democratic country should accept this without argument.
I said a few years ago when we start as a society to accept homosexuals we will move from people being either gay or straight to people choosing at will to go with what ever sex they want at the time and that is what is happening now.
Is this really how God intended for us to live? If homosexuality is a natural thing then why can't you have your OWN children with your same sex partner?
I fail to see how the cry of "discrimination" makes any sense here. Catholics do not believe in refusing housing, food, medical care, etc., to people of homosexual tendencies. Pop culture has decided it is not a disorder; Catholic teachings do not bow to the judgement of pop culture.
If homosexuality was truly something "natural," you'd see it all over the animal kingdom. And you don't, despite whatever cute stories the left-wing media comes up with every now and then. Let's be honest, some of those "confused fish and frog" stories are chalked up to synthetic estrogens polluting the waterways. Even in the plant kingdom, you need male and female parts for the plant to reproduce.
The question I have asked many times (and no one ever seems to answer) is this: if everyone in the world was homosexual, what would happen to the human race? Homosexuality is not consistent with the survival of the humanity. Therefore, it falls short of proving itself as "normal" in the eyes of God AND science.
As I see it (and my children were adopted from then-Catholic agencies in the UK), this is not a case of discriminating against homosexuals, it is discriminating in favour both of children (who by all measures are best brought up in a family with a male father and female mother) and of not infringing the Christian right to our God-given consciences. Consciences, I might add, informed by scriptural and magisterial truths that tell us that homosexual activity is wrong, is sinful.
We should not be forced by law to be refused our rights of conscience.
However, our bishops have not helped one iota by admitting that Catholic agencies have been referring active homosexual would-be adopters to suitable agencies. That, in moral terms, is no different to the Church referring a woman seeking an abortion to Marie Stopes, or a Catholc doctor referring a person seeking euathanasia to a clinic in Switzerland.
The Bible does clearly teach that Homosexual activity is wrong, however so are a myriad of other activities.- All of us have fallen short and rely on grace and the scrifice made by our Lord Jesus to make it to heaven.
I believe that homosexual people- either by inclination or action can make very good adoptive parents. If they have passed the very stringent adoption assessment proceedure, then you can be almost sure that they will provide a safer, more wholesome environment for a child to be raised in than if the child remained in what was very likely an abusive home environment. None of us can provide a 'perfect' home for an adoptive child- we all have faults.
catholic wife and mother said: "If homosexuality was truly something "natural," you'd see it all over the animal kingdom. And you don't, despite whatever cute stories the left-wing media comes up with every now and then"
You are incorrect. Homosexuality is widespread in the Animal Kingdom. I suggest you pay a visit to the excellent Natural History Museum of the University of Oslo and see the properly-documented scientific evidence for yourself.
http://www.nhm.uio.no/againstnature/
I don't think it's a question of "fairness", Alenka. And it is absolutely, a question of discrimination, where you appear to want some sort of exclusionary principle to be attached to a fundamental right people enjoy - in this case, to raise a family.
Human rights, or their provision, to be more accurate, have a habit of cutting through the fragmentary and sometimes downright dangerous religious beliefs of some to boil down to a simple "yes or no"; you either accept the provision of equality as a whole, or not at all. It's hardly a new concept, yet you fight it when it's something that turns your stomach a little bit; invoking democracy is a bit rich, to be honest; you can't pick and choose. Since the bigotry on display here is very much of a fundamental theocratic nature, not a people-led form of government, and since, as I say, human rights as a concept embodies no religious dimension, you don't have a leg to stand on except to appear outmoded, bigoted and unpleasant. I wish it wasn't any other way, but asking to be opted out from something so basic to democracy smacks of nothing but arrogance and wrong-headedness.
Your appeal to your own increasingly marginalised beliefs is not enough to persuade others that you're right. You need to find a means of appeal that is not based on the idea of "sin" in order to engage with others who don't subscribe to your belief system, of which there are millions. You don't get a choice to opt out because you don't like it. It's real democracy, not your weak calls to be exempted whenever something doesn't appeal to you, or because you can't back up your arguments except with your own circular and self-contained cant about "sinfulness".
Alenka, in addition to your very last sentence, a democratic country should accept nothing without argument. That's the point of a democracy.
When you look at the way God created a Man and God created a woman you can see how perfectly He made the two of them to compliment each other and satisfy each other beautifully.If you think of two men in bed together or two women and what all has to be done to accomplish the same thing (not even) it is clear just how unnatural it is! We love our homosexual friends and family but if someone was in a pit of quick sand you wouldn't jump in with them to hold their hand-you would throw them a rope and pull them out!
Forgive me for being so blunt, but I am an American.
If you have spent hours in the confessional, as I have, you will find that human nature is far more complex than black and wnite definitions. Human beings get involved in all kinds of sexual and emotional entanglements that often escape clear definition. From my experience,spread over many years, those who seek absolution do so because they are doing their best to remain faithful to God and the Church by recognising themselves as sinners in need of forgiveness. You have no idea what crosses some of these poor souls have to bear but they find in the Church a depth of mercy and compassion that helps them keep going, despite the harsh attitudes Catholics like you. What's wrong wth you, Joanna? The majority of homo and bi-sexuals and others with quirks in between are as unlike the stereotypical 'gay' as light from dark. And these faults are only a part of their lives, not the whole. They are as keen to seek holiness as the pious and some, through their struggle, attain it in abundance.
Homosexuals are generally men who can't obtain intercourse with women,for whatever reason. Once the behaviour has been established it is then hard to break, even if the possibility of women partners later comes along, and is if you like addictive. Another way of saying that someone is addicted is to say that they have an "orientation".
Lesbians are similar, but in their case it relationships rather than intercourse which they cannot obtain. It is rare to find a lesbian who hasn't had a failed relationship with a man, whilst exclusive male homsexuals are not uncommon.
It seems pretty obvious to mean that people with these behavioural problems are not suitable adoptive parents for children who may themsleves be disturbed.
Incidentally homosexuals do not want access to children for the purpose of ideological indoctriation, which is what our blogger fears.
Malcolm McLean
Joanna, where I live it's the *clergy* who are the homosexual activists and members of parliament.
What exactly would writing to them do, other than let them know where I live and what I think?
So ‘Anonymous’ by you account we should learn from nature, because it is natural. We are after all only a higher form of animal; OK lets examine your analogy further, some animals simulate mating with other animals, how do you know that they are actively engaging in deliberate same sex, sex (you cannot use homosexuality, they are not humans) as a de3liberate choice or preference over mating with the opposite sex? You don’t you are just putting a spin on it to suit your agenda. You do not know if this is an instinctual behaviour to ‘practice’ for when the time to mate comes along, that that there may be a shortage of available opposite sex animals available, but animals being instinctive mate when the time is right, the same way birds migrate in the autumn and salmon swim home.
And lets not forget many species also mate indiscriminately, commit rape, take multiple mates, use violence to prevent others from mating, ducks participate in gang rape, as do Three whales trap a female and each take turns having sex with her. Does this mean that we should accept gang rape "because it is seen in nature"?
Oh and one more thing the Nazis had museums, by your argument that must prove all Jews are untermensche.
Let me propose a reason why gays should be hoping that it is not genetic: If it's genetic, it can be detected parentally and you know what happens to foetuses that have unwanted genetic traits, don't you? Think about that the next time you support you local pro-choice candidate.
Although, I suppose then they'll make it illegal to abort for sexuality selection (didn't they already try to make it illegal for male/female sex selection and fail?). Abortion is a right except when it might abort a future gay person.
As a committed Christian I feel compelled to add my comment. I am appalled at the bigotry, judgement and attitudes of the 'super-Christians' displayed on here. What happened to grace? What happened to being a vessel for Christ's love? What happened to being a positive witness to non-Christians? Trust me the un-grace displayed by some here is a disgrace. Well done those of you who have commented positively in favour of valuing all humans as equal and worthy....all are...Priest so rightly comments that things are rarely black and white, people are complex, all sin, all fall short, we cannot judge on single issues.
Fortuneately for Joanna et al God's grace extends to those who sin against their brothers and sisters by the use of religosity and legalism. The Bible is as clear in condemming Pharisees as it is about hmosexuality.
One adoption rule I do agree with is that those who hold zealous/anti-discriminatory views are unsuitable as adopters because of their oppressive ways (and how this could further damage children). Joanna et al - you have no chance!! Not because you are Catholic but because your views are so narrow...what would a child adopted into such a family feel if they turned out to be gay?? Whilst I am not gay my profesional experience of adoption issues (and children's needs) is that it is the quality of the care that can be provided (and the skills needed to bring up children who have issues of abuse or rejection)which is crucial.
By all means lobby your Bishops...I shall stick to lobbying a higher power...I shall pray that God's will prevails...
One may be born with an inclination to homosexuality but surely with Gods grace it is something that can be worked on. Many take on a celibate life and they must be respected and prayed for. Todays society does not allow for self discipline and suffering it's no longer politically correct. Just because you are born with an inclination towards a way of life doesn't mean you no longer have a free choice to choose. Battered children do not have to batter their children.
The myth of the gay gene
http://www.ignatius.com/magazines/hprweb/austriaco_gay_gene.htm
The Myth of the Gay Gene
http://www.ignatius.com/magazines/hprweb/austriaco_gay_gene.htm
Doubtless you know that when the issue of same sex adoption came up the secretary of the body that coordinates Catholic adoption agencies told the Bishops that rarely, if ever, were they approached by such people for adopting children. Invariably they went to secular agencies. He further advised them to do nothing but wait until a case arose and then take action. They ignored this advice and went ahead in opposing the proposed bill on a homophobic basis. A furore followed that succeeded in damaging the Church in the eyes of non-Catholics, notably in the light of the world problem of child sex abuse by priests in recent decades. They then changed their ground and defended their position on the basis of family values. These, if a protest were to be made, should have come first. Now, in the eyes of the world, they have discredited themselves, and none of this unhappy controversy would have arisen if they had taken the right advice first. The consequences are that in future they have largely neutered themselves from taking a strong stand on more important issues like abortion and euthenasia. You deserve credit for allowing commentators to put both sides of the case; in the past I suspect you would not have done so. I was impressed by what priest wrote about the complexity of human nature because absolutes fly in the face of reality. They are the start of the argument, not the conclusion.
Absolute truth is absolute truth there are no arguments or conclusions to reach. They have been reached by a power far greater than us. The Ten Commandments are not open to debate. Life is sacred. 'Do not be deceived: neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals etc will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Why are we all so afraid of the Truth????
Grace the committed Christian can carry on down your wide inclusive road, we 'super-Christians' are trying the narrow one, and guess what it is difficult in the face of public opinion and our less discerning co-religionists. Don’t you know it would be the easiest thing in the world to say that homosexuality is OK, it is in Gods plan, it would make things so much easier. You say judgement, I say obedience, you say grace, I say courage not to ignore and hide from the difficult bits of the Good News given by grace. You say a vessel for Christ's love, show me please where Christ or any of the Apostles, Church Fathers, Disciples or anyone said, taught or wrote that homosexuality was in accordance with Gods plan, I really want to know. As for positive witness to non-Christians, can’t you see by your measure any behaviour that society condones and is popular, we should accept in the spirit of positive witness to non-Christians, even if that behaviour is non-Christians? Well I'll have another two extra wives please and that bloke in Germany should not be judged unfavourably just because he wants to marry his sister, the one they have had four kids with. Do you go along with the idea that what goes on behind closed doors by consenting adults is non of societies business? If you do you’ll have no problem with euthanasia, we must not judge abortion and as for that cannibal who advertised on the Net for a victim to eat, well they are consenting adults.
You confuse Christianity with weakness and pandering to the fashions of society. Any parent knows love is not saying yes all the time, some things are right others are wrong, you know where to find the difference, I pray you understand it further.
Priest if you are a Catholic Priest, get yourself to your Ordinary ASAP and seek advice on what you have revealed, you may not be latae sententiae but you desperately need guidance on what you have done. I hope you never hear my confession; you have caused scandal to the faithful by your action.
I have no idea who priest or Dr Foster are but, as an occasional reader of Catholic blogs, I think more scandal has been caused to the faithful by some of the harsh attitudes represented by Mrs Bogle and some of her commentators than priest's comments on the reality of many Catholic's lives. He is not condoning sin but simply absolving in the name of Christ and, like him, saying 'Go, and sin no more.' And, if I have to be personal, I would not care to have Dr Foster as my GP but I would happily make my confession to priest because he is engaged in a ministry of reconciliation rather than denunciation.
If anyone's interested, I've tried to make a collection of the points raised against the Christian position on this and tried to answer them. The attempt can be seen here.
Yes, Elizabeth YOU ARE RIGHT!!
For those of you who are not christians and do not hold the bible as your referance for truth you would not understand that the christians point of view comes directly from the Word of God and the loving instructions He left for us to live our life.
Priest if you love people and truly want to help them please understand that when you take white and mix it with black you will get gray. That is called compromise and it doesn't help in the issue of dealing with the sinful nature. Of course people deal with all sorts of demons, but point them to the word of God, pray they will be delivered, give them the truth of God's way. Could it be that God is not suffient in this particular area. I don't think so. I think it is those who simply want their own way.
'So, even among saints there are contrasts, disagreements, controversies,' the Holy Father is reported to have said in the Catholic Herald,7 February 2007, p4,'This appears very consoling to me, because we see that the saints did not drop as saints from heaven. They were men like us with problems and even with sins,' the Pope said before he was interrupted by applause. 'Holiness consists not in never having made a mistake or sinned,' he said, but rather it grows with 'conversion, repentance, with a willingness to start over and, especially, with the ability to reconcile and forgive. We can all learn this path to holiness,' he said. Isn't this what Priest was also saying? Yet I suspect that some of these commentators would like to burn them at the stake for such compassion. I realise that Dr Foster, Joanna and their ilk only commit venial sins, if that, but I am thankful that we also have a Pope and priests who understand the light and shade of human nature and the struggle that many Catholics have, like the saints, to shuffle into heaven. Our Lady is not only the Queen of All Saints, but the refuge of sinners and she helps the most hopeless cases over the style. Speaking of the hardliners on this blog, remember the words of Christ to the Pharisees and Saducees and so on, the Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice members of his day, 'truly they have had their reward.' Grace, don't worry about the bigots, your are on the right track and you clearly say your prayers.
Auntie J has said it perfectly - 'the Catholic Catechism teaches on the subject of homosexuality WITH CLARITY AND CHARITY'!
All these comments calling for blood because Catholics are intolerant blah blah blah are completely missing the point.
The point is this - Homosexuality is wrong. It is disordered, it is a lifetstyle choice, it is against Natural Law, it is against God's Law. Choose to live and practice this lifestyle expect the consequences. On the other hand chosse to struggle with this temptation and with God's grace you will survive.
The Catholic Church offers help in a practical way - look up Courage and Encourage. Homosexuality can be cured and there are many thousands of testimonies that will back this up.
Fraternal correction is the most Christian thing you can do for someone you know who is homosexual or has these tendencies.
Read the comments on this post carefully. No-one hates the homosexual person. Hate the sin, love the sinner.
To all the people who support the SORs, it is not about discrimination of gay people. It is about the fact that several faith groups are about to be forced to teach and agree with something that goes against our consciences and is against our faiths. Don't forget, muslims and jews are also against this, but as usual Catholics are getting it in the neck. Gay people are able to adopt through many agencies, there are secular schools children can be taught in, they are not refused medical help or jobs. Gay groups insist in being almost militant in demanding everyone accepts them. We are told we're bigoted for daring to believe in something other than what the government and these groups have decided is the way to go. I say that these gay groups and the government are the bigots. They are forcing people to go against their deeply held beliefs by changing laws and threatening us with the potential of jail. It is bigoted and rediculous that I could be imprisoned, taken away from my own small children, my family can be torn apart so that certain other groups can have children. The SORs are quite simply wrong in my view. We need to make ourselves heard.
Of course Peter you are right, please priest what else has been revealed in the confessional so we can all benefit from your wisdom and years of experience, gained in the strictest secrecy of the confessional, perhaps next you would like to talk to the SUN. If you are a priest you are under a vow of obedience to your Bishop, what you cannot share with him you have shared, however anonymously, with the world on a public blog, what are you thinking man?
Again Peter as you presume Dr refers to a Medical Doctor so you presume that scandal refers to 'harsh attitudes’. Scandal in the Catholic Church has a very specific meaning, go and learn what it is. The culpability of the priests actions have nothing to do with Gay issues it is everything to do with breaking the seal of the confessional.
Anonymous, the logic of your argument (to use your words) is that we can have reconciliation and obtain forgiveness without conversion, repentance and a willingness to start over. Your whole argument is that being an unrepentant homosexual in the Church should be acceptable and anyone who would object is obviously an unreconstructed bigot (why not throw in a few chauvinists, hypocrites and extremists for good measure). I am curious to know on what authority (apart from the BBC, Guardian or Indi) you hold this position because contrary to what you may think it is not Christian. You persist in this error in the face of the Church teaching on Sins Crying to Heaven for Vengeance, do you find them inconvenient, so last millennium, or are you just ignorant of them. You may not be aware of the teaching of the Church Militant, it is nearly out of living memory but believe me you cannot make accommodation with Sin, and active homosexuality is sin, we may no longer preach Hell but do you think its gone away or just un-PC?
You at least seem to have a passing awareness of the Holy Father, however misinformed In his letter to Bishops of the Church, ‘On the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons’, he stated that "although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder."
And if this is not clear enough for you, he reprimanded Seattle Archbishop Raymond Hunthausen for his unorthodox views on women, homosexuals, and doctrinal issues, stating, "The Archdiocese should withdraw all support from any group, which does not unequivocally accept the teaching of the Magisterium concerning the intrinsic evil of homosexual activity." Archbishop Hunthausen was temporarily relieved of his authority. So how does that fit in with your light and shade view of the Church, not too grey from where I’m standing
“We can all learn this path to holiness,' he said. Isn't this what Priest was also saying?” - Homosexuality as a path to God, No I don’t think it was
“Yet I suspect that some of these commentators would like to burn them at the stake for such compassion.” - Your ignorance is showing, as are your bad manners.
“I realise that Dr Foster, Joanna and their ilk only commit venial sins,” - Really, and you come by this insight how exactly? The same clarity of vision that enables you to condemn all objectors to a Homosexual Promoting Church as immolators. Quite staggering.
Finally your charity extends to damming we ‘bigots’ (again with the bigots) who demure from your idea of paradise as unworthy of it, even going so far as to supplant Christ in condemning us before the eschatology or even the Parousia, some going that. You even call on the Blessed Mother and selectively, and quite poorly, there are better more condemning verse, cite Holy Scripture to support your conviction. You have quoted the passage out of context by the way, as He was condemning their propensity (yes Christ did that sort of thing, so Un-PC) to pride and public expressions and expectations of honour. This in the context of a rabbinical priesthood that was ignoring the unchanging message in the Pentateuch and books of Moses. Will you be going to the Masses for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgendered Catholics, parents, families and friends, at the Church of the Assumption, London newly authorised by Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor?
Has Priest broken the seal of the confessional? I don't think so because he has not revealed the sins of an individual known to another, but made generalisations about the quest for holiness derived from repentant sinners. Read any manual of confessional practise and you will find specific and general cases drawn from acutual confessions. They are free for all to read, no seal has been broken. But honestly, Dr Foster, in the light of your posts on this depressing blog, I suggest you seek medical help yourself. You're sick.
It's interesting to me how many people who do not agree with this author's blog tune in to read and then argue with the people who hold very genuine beleifs, and attitudes towards the pressing issues at hand in our world and childrens future! With a christian mind set of moral's and solutions these are OUR views. Why don't you go to a Gay Bar and sit with the people who agree with you, and let us have OUR forum!
Variety is the spice of life.
there are a variety of spices too.
You wouldn't put oregano into an apple pie.
I agree go find your own recipe.
MS. G.
Dr Foster, from what I understand from the Catholic press the Masses at the Assumption, Warwick Street, have been authorised by Cardinal Levada, the head of the Congregation for the Dotrine of the Faith, and the Cardinal is merely acting on that authorisation to rectify an anomaly. You can't get much higher thn that. I won't be attending them myself a) because I go to my parish church and b) because I am married with children, but I don't for a moment begrudge them them to the people for whom they are organised. It'e better that they should be kept within the fold than seeking shelter beneath an Anglican umbrella. And, talking of the last, you seem to have lost yours.
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